Not only does BMW not know how to design cars....

"krustywantout" (krustywantout) 09/25/2020 at 10:28 • Filed to: None

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They also don’t know how to cook their books without getting caught! What really bother’s me is if one of us did something like this, we’d be in jail, assets seized , credit destroyed. But I guess mega corporations “deserve” these considerations because of all the “good” they provide our economy and we don’t want to expense society with a costly litigation. I remember a few years ago, Standard Charter Bank was caught money laundering for the Iranian government, basically a treasonous crime, and all they had to do was pay a fine. Nice.

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For Sweden > krustywantout 09/25/2020 at 10:38

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How do you put a corporation in jail though

Tripper > For Sweden 09/25/2020 at 10:40

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I believe its called “limp mode”

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > krustywantout 09/25/2020 at 10:42

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Maybe I’m just bad at reading but they paid an 18 million dollar fine but they used the erroneous information to raise 18 billion dollars in corporate bond sales. That fine is chump change compared to what they made.

maintained a reserve of unreported retail vehicle sales — referred to internally as the ‘bank’ — that it used to meet internal monthly sales targets without regard to when the underlying sales occurred

So they didn’t report cars that don’t exist, they just underreported sales for a sales report reserve. It’s brilliant but also illegal.

krustywantout > For Sweden 09/25/2020 at 10:43

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I have a business, decisions are made by me and my employees . I can go to jail for fraud or negligence. Past examples are Jeffery Skilling , Bernie Madoff, and Charles Keating. We have just decided not to put people in jail anymore. Elizabeth Homes will probably go to jail. 

ranwhenparked > krustywantout 09/25/2020 at 10:44

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GM and Chrysler d id basically this exact thing for decades as normal business practice. Dump poor selling models onto dealers to register themselves, count them as new sales, and then eventually res ell them to customers with steep discounts. Though, in that case, it was more to keep factories running continuously at optimum capacity regardless of demand.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > For Sweden 09/25/2020 at 10:44

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It has to be a big jail.

For Sweden > krustywantout 09/25/2020 at 10:44

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Increasing the American prison population beyond it’s already hilariously large size isn’t a great idea

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > For Sweden 09/25/2020 at 10:49

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Corporations are people

krustywantout > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/25/2020 at 10:50

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Exactly ! Our society and economy gets distracted by all of the political unrest while many corporations are blatantly committing fraud. It’s not a Republican or Democratic thing, it’s become the norm. Look at the opioid cri sis; how many pharmaceutical executives went to jail while hundreds of thousands of people died?! I have a small business, if even one person got hurt or died because of something I did, my business and life would be over. But the mega corporations buy politicians and judicial favor to get away with murder.

krustywantout > For Sweden 09/25/2020 at 10:55

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Of course we put the guy who didn’t pay his parking tickets , had an ounce of weed, or is just the wrong color in jail but god forbid we put people who are actually doing serious financial fraud in jail. I know small business owners who have had their assets frozen and threat of jail time because of unpaid sales tax in the thousands of dollars.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > krustywantout 09/25/2020 at 10:57

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I see absolutely no reason why they shouldn’t do that again in the future. There is very little reason for them to stop. You can be in favor of smaller government and not want corporations to walk all over you. We can’t all be an Uzi Nissan (died of COVID actually which is somehow fitting in a deeply tragic way) but when corporations make more money getting caught cheating than they do playing by the rules you can’t act shocked every time they get caught cheating.

I try not to touch on partisan politics on this site but you make a good point about how this should be a bipartisan issue. However, for some reason prosecuting corporate crimes has been pretty much ignored this election cycle or even the ones before that. One party says more tax breaks for business and the other says more government subsidies, but they are both ignoring enforcing the codes that allow the corporate ecosystem to function in the first place without trampling the consumer.

krustywantout > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/25/2020 at 11:02

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We are now a socialist country. We provide welfare for corporations and individuals. The CEO of Southwest was crying for more government money during the crisis but he failed to mention the company is sitting on $ 15 billion in cash.

For Sweden > krustywantout 09/25/2020 at 11:10

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Who’s going to jail for a parking ticket

Sovande > krustywantout 09/25/2020 at 11:12

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Other than the punitive punishment of incarceration, what does it really do to curb the issues?  Locking people up costs money.  Better to just have them pay then to incur the costs of locking them up.  If it’s a financial crime it should have a financial solution that doesn’t cost the taxpayer.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > For Sweden 09/25/2020 at 11:13

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Ah but white-collar criminals don’t go to real prison, they get to pick the facility.

After being handed a two-month sentence for her role in the US college admissions scandal, Full House actress Lori Loughlin “requested” to be sent to the Victorville Federal Correctional Institution in California, where inmates can choose from an array of lifestyle and vocational pursuits.

“Lifestyle and vocational pursuits? ” I doubt she’ll come out with prison tattoos after her two month sentence.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > krustywantout 09/25/2020 at 11:14

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This is why I’d love to see Elizabeth Warren as AG. She’d come for the corporate assholes getting away with this shit and bring the receipts.

For Sweden > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom 09/25/2020 at 11:22

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I guess that depends on if you think prison should be punitive or corrective. Many first-world countries lean towards corrective.

Unless you think Ms. Loughlin is a threat to join a prison gang or shiv someone.  Then a high-security facility would be warranted.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > krustywantout 09/25/2020 at 11:24

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“S ocialism ” is such a charged word in this country that I hesitate to use it. We’re really more of what you would call State Capitalism where the state has control of capital and the means of production but they are run for-profit. It’s kind of a hybrid between Marxist socialism as a stepping stone to true Communism and traditional capitalism but not quite democratic socialism (where government operated industries are not run for-profit).

https://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2012/02/state-socialism-versus-state-captialism.html

Essentially I see the Democratic Party a s stumbling vaguely closer to Democratic Socialism bundled with a revitalization of social safety nets and income/class structure while the Republican Party is letting Laissez Faire policies in the back door while maintaining State Capitalism on the books.

I’m more of a right leaning centerist economically and socially radical so this election has left me high and dry. I don’t want to vote for any of the clowns staggering their way towards the Oval Office or their focus on the appearance of change for the better rather than actually addressing the cause of the issues. As for what those causes are, opinions differ, but I don’t think anyone can argue that what is currently being done is the best thing to do.

krustywantout > For Sweden 09/25/2020 at 11:26

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https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/04/texas-asked-judges-to-stop-throwing-people-in-jail-for-unpaid-parking-tickets-they-didnt-listen/

For Sweden > krustywantout 09/25/2020 at 11:31

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Texans have the judges they elect.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > For Sweden 09/25/2020 at 11:33

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A fair question. Clearly she is not a threat to anyone, hence my tongue-in-cheek reply. For financial crimes I’d think prison is punitive; somebody at BMW gambled that breaking the law was an acceptable risk to make millions (or in this case billions). It seems nobody is going to jail and the penalty is a tiny fraction of the gain. BMW, now chastened, will toe the line for a while until a similar situation comes up and then it’s lather, rinse and repeat. That seems to be the way of financial crimes, sadly. 

krustywantout > Sovande 09/25/2020 at 11:34

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I think if the system was fair and equitable towards everyone in business, then I agree with what you said . But it isn’t and our justice system is geared towards protecting the rich and powerful. I also doubt this fine is going to curb the issue.

Sovande > krustywantout 09/25/2020 at 11:57

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Every single thing on Earth is geared towards the wealthy.

Sovande > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom 09/25/2020 at 12:01

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What was the financial gain for BMW in actual dollars? It’s not as though they didn’t sell any cars, so I wonder how much  capital would have been raised without inflated numbers?  Seems like that difference is what the fine should be.

fintail > For Sweden 09/25/2020 at 12:15

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If corporations are people too (a man who was born on third base and acts like he hit a triple told me so) , where’s the capital punishment?

fintail > For Sweden 09/25/2020 at 12:16

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First world countries.  Nice caveat as the US slowly marches away from that ideal.

fintail > Sovande 09/25/2020 at 12:17

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Maybe that should change? Oops, that must mean I “hate” the rich or are jealous or some other insane bullshit.

fintail > krustywantout 09/25/2020 at 12:18

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American style socialism - the masses sacrifice for the good of the top few, privatize profits, socialize losses.

fintail > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/25/2020 at 12:23

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The mainstream Dems as they exist now are just statist corporatists in disguise who pretend they want some first world public goods but won’t do anything to make it happen, won’t touch the past 40 years of failed trickle down lie and fantasy even in light of decaying economic mobility and untenable wealth gaps . Those brave ones who marched and fought against “the man” 50 years are now “the man”, and aren’t going to let that go.

No matter how lame the opposition might be, it is the only choice this year IMO.

For Sweden > fintail 09/25/2020 at 12:31

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Chapter 7 bankruptcy ?

For Sweden > fintail 09/25/2020 at 12:32

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Throwing people into supermax for financial crimes seems to be part of that march

Sovande > fintail 09/25/2020 at 12:32

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I think it should change and that it should change now. Fuck the rich (seriously, this is the easiest way to become one of them).

fintail > For Sweden 09/25/2020 at 12:33

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And those who make the mess escape scot-free with their undeserved if not ill-gotten gold.  

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > Sovande 09/25/2020 at 12:34

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Not being a BMW finance guy, it’s hard to know. My take is that it was a calculated risk that paid off. The difference must have been significant I’d think. 

fintail > For Sweden 09/25/2020 at 12:35

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Hell, the supposed first world nation of the USA has been destroying lives over realistically minor drug offenses and as it now marches towards fascism is threatening huge penalties for protesters. Please excuse me if I don’t cry over the idea of the suits who are a big problem in many socio-economic issues getting nailed too.

fintail > Sovande 09/25/2020 at 12:36

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The easiest way is to be born at a certain level, it takes money to make money.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > fintail 09/25/2020 at 12:56

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I don’t know what’s more concerning, that some people believe that they aren’t “the man” or that no one bothers to elect someone who actually represents them instead of someone giving the appearance of kinda caring about one or two things close to what you care about.

For Sweden > fintail 09/25/2020 at 12:57

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That’s not saying the prison system is bad, that’s just wanting different people in prison

fintail > For Sweden 09/25/2020 at 13:25

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I have no problem with throwing some people in prison, but it might not entirely be the same people who are in prison now.   But that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong, I mean, the system is obviously working just fine right now, especially when it comes to corporate and executive responsibility and accountability.

fintail > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/25/2020 at 13:27

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And another concerning ideal, people voting just to screw over other people. I think that’s a huge ideal behind the current political climate. I can’t recall when a mainstream candidate actually represented the average voter.   

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > fintail 09/25/2020 at 14:58

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The way a two party system works you’re not going to get candidates that make the most people satisfied, you’re going to get candidates that appear better to a majority of the half or so of participating voters than the candidate representing the other half. The system will always produce Trumps. He is a brilliant candidate but a terrible politician. Only one of those things matters in this system. 

fintail > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/25/2020 at 15:44

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More reason why the idea of a two party system is defective and regressive. We’re living with it, now.

I can’t think of a prior candidate as dangerous as 45, and I hope we never see another. Everything wrong with America wrapped up in a convenient pa ckage.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > fintail 09/25/2020 at 16:15

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There’s a difference between being a great candidate and being a great president and there is unfortunately little overlap between the two. Trump’s 2016 campaign was brilliant but I rather wish it hadn’t been.

I’ve read about multi party alternatives but the two parties hold all the power and they can definitely squash most proposed changes to the system. 

fintail > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/25/2020 at 16:32

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Yes, in terms of wild populist insanity, 45 has been brilliant, if not unprecedented (not unpresidented).

Yeah, there’s no viable third party option in the US, none on the horizon, maybe not ever. Just two variations that may look different from each other, but also share a lot.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > fintail 09/25/2020 at 16:40

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And it benefits both parties to have an intense rivalry. They’ve positioned themselves so that third party votes are almost always a vote taken away from the main party you hate the least which is brilliant. It doesn’t make sense for politicians to change the system because they benefit from it at the expense of the voter. Plus electoral college shenanigans would be sure to screw over any third party that gained a majority of votes. I don’t see any shifts in the two party system in our future.

fintail > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/25/2020 at 16:59

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Yep, two parties = less competition = more lobbyist $$$.   The masses are left to choose the lesser evil, vote for someone else’s good, or vote to hurt someone else.

Electoral college is a good point, it could be a key barrier for a third party, which will never have a real chance without a popular vote.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > fintail 09/25/2020 at 17:10

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Well if the electoral college is ever subverted according to the plan still circulating about binding states to vote all the majority their population chooses rather than proportionally it might prove difficult. Like it or not, the electoral college functions as intended as a barrier to radical change.

As it is, there is shockingly little hope for a voter in this election. The only reason to elect Biden is he isn’t Trump. The only reason to elect Trump is to screw over the libtards at their  own expense (Kinja says libtard is a word. Worrying). It's less like I don't have a horse in the race and more like both horses are galloping in the wrong direction and no one has noticed except me. 

fintail > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/25/2020 at 17:22

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Yep, it functions at it was designed ~ 250 years ago during a different reality.   Less radical change, more American quality of life indices lagging developed nations.

I’ll vote for the lesser evil and work out the rest later - one side isn’t a corrupt regressive deconstructivist emboldening the worst factions of society , that’s enough for me.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > fintail 09/25/2020 at 17:31

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The lesser evil calculation becomes significantly more complex when you consider that one side has a very well developed pro abortion stance and I am staunchly pro life. To explain this, the issue has never been about women’s rights but rather whether or not an unborn fetus is a human being, in which case there is no acceptable reason to terminate its life. If a fetus is NOT a human being, there is no acceptable reason why anyone besides the mother should have any claim on the unborn. Basically you're all in or all out and a compromise DOES stray into women's rights whereas the extremes have justified reasons for their actions. 

In this case, it means opening up the path for countless human lives to be senselessly wasted vs voting in a deeply undesirable government that begrudgingly sides vaguely pro life (I have serious doubts about their sincerity in anything). It’s a horrible predicament.

fintail > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/25/2020 at 20:13

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Yep, and the American “ right” (sarcastic quotes) somewhat feigns this belief in the value of life - so long as the life is unborn. But looking at so many quality of life and socio-economic aspects of the country, it is obvious that lives really aren’t worth much once they are outside the womb. If “born” lives mattered, there’d be a better healthcare system and safety net, rather than impossible dreams and lies about trickle down and bootstraps.

I can respect your views on the subject, but in my opinion, the GOP is playing with people of similar beliefs.   Fuck over the living for the promise of saving the unborn - which isn’t going to happen, as if you want to see real bloodshed, repeal RvW and see what’s going on.   I am sure the fascists out there are salivating at the thought.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > fintail 09/26/2020 at 15:06

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It is very much true that the politicians representing the right at the federal level especially have used and abused their constituents for far too long. It's a pretty terrible situation but the party knows that many of those voters would rather cut off their right arm than vote left so nothing changes. A similar attitude exists on both sides of the political divide, something you yourself seem to feel victimized by. 

fintail > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/26/2020 at 16:51

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Indeed, or to use a cliche, they will cut off their nose to spite their face.  Seeing what some will do to ‘own the libz’ is pretty depressing, but I suppose when you have nothing to lose, you are easy to manipulate.

I think the entire nation is victimized by the divide, which has been heightened as it enables a few to reap profits. Must be more of that capitalism I’ve been hearing so much about.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > fintail 09/26/2020 at 19:21

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Now that’s something we can agree on. Forcing people to choose between someone that is selling a cheap approximation of what they want and someone who is selling a cheap approximation of something they disagree with is just a tremendously terrible situation. It benefits the politicians though and at the very least you can’t argue that it hasn’t produced a stable political system. It just has become increasingly unsustainable for the people who suffer under it.